[VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

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[VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



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Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Ralph Goers
+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>

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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
No wait, the lazy voting thing at Commons is just the same form we use for code, just with an email plus a 72 hour notice. Makes sense for repository changes since those are a pain to reverse once the format is changed to git.

On 7 March 2017 at 23:07, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:
The -1 thing is mentioned here <https://logging.apache.org/guidelines.html> regarding a -1 being a veto for anything consensus-related (generally anything to do with adding or removing committers/PMCs). I suppose in that context, a mailing list change probably falls under lazy majority, though whatever it is we're doing at Commons for lazy votes isn't on that page.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:59, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
+1

Note that generally a -1 is a veto only on code commits. On everything else it just means you are against the proposal. However, we generally strive for consensus so great weight is given to binding votes that are opposed.

Ralph

On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:23 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is my +1.

If this is the incorrect voting format and we need to do a 2/3 majority instead, please veto this and let me know. This situation is not spelled out in the bylaws.

On 7 March 2017 at 22:20, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



--
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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Stefan Bodewig
In reply to this post by Matt Sicker
On 2017-03-08, Matt Sicker wrote:

> I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half
> of them less than five minutes ago.

> This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists.
> The proposal is to combine them as follows:

> log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ ->
> [hidden email]

+1

> log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ ->
> [hidden email]

-1

I don't think the users would benefit from a shared list and would
prefer to keep them separate (this is not a veto, just a vote).

Stefan

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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Ralph Goers
In reply to this post by Matt Sicker
The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
Based on the voting so far, it looks like merging user lists isn't desired. I'm cool with that, so I'll -1 the user list merge as well. I'm still +1 for merging developer lists unless someone has a better idea. We shouldn't have to rely on the private list for public discussions.

On 8 March 2017 at 06:38, Apache <[hidden email]> wrote:
The reason for doing this is a result of the last board meeting. The PMC had to discuss something on the private mailing list simply because PMC members don't subscribe to every list, nor do they want to, so it was not possible to have the discussion on the correct mailing list.

Ralph

On Mar 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Dominik Psenner
In reply to this post by Matt Sicker

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>

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[Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Ralph Goers
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>


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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





--
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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Ralph Goers
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>

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RE: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Harry Martyrossian
In reply to this post by Dominik Psenner

+1

 

From: Dominik Psenner [mailto:[hidden email]]
Sent: Thursday, March 09, 2017 1:45 AM
To: Log4J Developers List <[hidden email]>; Logging PMC <[hidden email]>; Logging General <[hidden email]>; Log4Net Developers List <[hidden email]>; [hidden email]; [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

 

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]
 
Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1
 
Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4

Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:

I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

 

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

 

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

 

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

 

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

 

[java]

[net]

[cxx]

[php]

 

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

 

Voting:

 

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!

+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.

-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.

-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

 

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

 

--

Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>

 

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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Dominik Psenner
In reply to this post by Ralph Goers

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>


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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Ralph Goers
This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
MagineTV 

Mikael Ståldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   



-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>

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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Dominik Psenner
Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
MagineTV 

Mikael Ståldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   



-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>

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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
MagineTV 

Mikael Ståldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   



-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Ralph Goers
Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
MagineTV 

Mikael Ståldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   



-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker

On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
MagineTV 

Mikael Ståldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   



-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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Re: [Discuss][VOTE] Combine the project user and dev mailing lists into user@ and dev@

Matt Sicker
Some things:

1. Archives won't be merged.
2. Infra suggests it might be a better idea to have the old email addresses respond with a canned reply saying that the lists have moved over to dev@, though they can set it up all as aliases if we prefer.
3. Current subscribers from all dev lists would be automatically subscribed to the combined list.

So, use aliases or have the old addresses bounce back and inform senders to use the new list?

On 12 March 2017 at 18:31, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

On 12 March 2017 at 17:11, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes,

If you could send the request to infra I would appreciate it.

Ralph

On Mar 12, 2017, at 1:13 PM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

The vote has been open for 5 days now. Based on the tallies and discussions, it sounds like we'd like to merge the dev lists but keep the user lists as is. Shall we move forward with combining them now?

On 10 March 2017 at 12:27, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:
Total agreement.

On 10 Mar 2017 6:26 p.m., "Ralph Goers" <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is exactly why we need one dev list. These last two responses dropped the other lists.  This is a horrible way to have discussions that affect all the sub projects.

Ralph


On Mar 10, 2017, at 9:11 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'd love to see more unified configurations in all the subprojects. Gary mentioned that as an idea for log4cxx as that would make it useful for his use case where they're using both Java and C++ in various projects.

While the programming languages in use here (Java, .NET, PHP, and C++) aren't really compatible with each other, having similar architectures and plugin systems could help a bit in this regard. Having more inclusive conversations about this would be great.

On 10 March 2017 at 04:29, Mikael Ståldal <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think that a vast majority of our users only uses one of the languages we support, and therefore only are interested in one of the subprojects.

On Fri, Mar 10, 2017 at 11:23 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

We had once the discussion that we wanted all Apache Logging projects to become very similar in their usage, starting with the same or a very similar configuration. Given that we should aim towards one Apache Logging specification and several Apache Logging specification implementations in the form of Apache Logging subprojects. That means all the devs for all subprojects have to talk more. To me this is a good reasons to merge the dev mailing lists. Further I don't see why the same use case should not apply to the user mailing lists, too. Those mailing lists see very low traffic but all of them need a larger audience. Just quoting the last few messages of two user mailing lists I follow:

log4j-user: the last topic came in a week ago, the topic before that about two weeks ago
log4net-user: the last topic came in 24 hours ago and the topic before that a month ago

Cheers

On 2017-03-09 19:24, Ralph Goers wrote:
We use general as mainly an announcement list for topics that might be of general interest to all logging projects. Generally, these are just release announcements.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 10:37 AM, Matt Sicker <[hidden email]> wrote:

Yeah, I agree that the user lists can remain separate as it doesn't cause any issues currently. The main idea here is whether we should merge the dev lists into one, or if we need a common dev list for all devs to subscribe to (general@ doesn't sound appropriate, but I don't know what that list is for).

On 9 March 2017 at 10:26, Ralph Goers <[hidden email]> wrote:
You should note that while we consider all votes only PMC votes are “binding”. I don’t think that changes much however.

From a PMC perspective I have to say that keeping the user’s lists separate isn’t likely to be an issue as most of the things that would need to be discussed would be on a dev list anyway.

Ralph

On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:45 AM, Dominik Psenner <[hidden email]> wrote:

The votes are way too scattered over the different mailing lists so that I didn't even find my own vote. ;-) Therefore I'm trying to summarize the current state of the vote:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: +1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: +1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: +0

Totals so far:
+1: 5
+0: 1
-0: 2
-1: 1

log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

Matt Sicker: -1
Ralph Goers: +1
Stefan Bodewig: -1
Sven Rautenverg: -1
Thorsten Schöning: -0
Ivan Habunek: -0
Dominik Psenner: +1
Remko Popma: +1
Mikael Ståldal: -1

Totals so far:
+1: 3
+0: 0
-0: 2
-1: 4
Sorry to anyone who's vote is missing.

On 2017-03-08 05:20, Matt Sicker wrote:
I may be missing some mailing lists considering I just subscribed to half of them less than five minutes ago.

This is a vote to merge the various Apache Logging Services mailing lists. The proposal is to combine them as follows:

log4j-dev@, log4php-dev@, log4net-dev@, log4cxx-dev@ -> [hidden email]
log4j-user@, log4php-user@, log4net-user@, log4cxx-user@, general@ -> [hidden email]

commits@ and private@ remain the same as before.

The proposal would also suggest that the old emails become aliases for the combined email names so as not to lose any future emails. To distinguish between projects, a subject tag can be added such as:

[java]
[net]
[cxx]
[php]

Though I wouldn't think such a tag is required, though it should help in gaining the attention of the appropriate audience.

Voting:

+1: Yes, combine the mailing lists!
+0: Go ahead, don't care that much.
-0: Don't like it, but not vetoing it.
-1: No, don't do that! I have a better idea!

This vote follows the same "lazy consensus" (at least 3 +1 binding, no -1/vetoes) we use for general releases and whatnot. The vote will be open for at least 72 hours.

-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>





-- 
MagineTV 

Mikael Ståldal
Senior software developer 

Magine TV
Grev Turegatan 3  | 114 46 Stockholm, Sweden  |   www.magine.com 

Privileged and/or Confidential Information may be contained in this message. If you are not the addressee indicated in this message
(or responsible for delivery of the message to such a person), you may not copy or deliver this message to anyone. In such case, 
you should destroy this message and kindly notify the sender by reply email.   



-- 
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>




--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>



--
Matt Sicker <[hidden email]>
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